Philosophical Musings on Love and Human Nature (moved to General)
This Topic has been moved to General
1 comment posted: Wednesday, May 13th, 2026
Philosophical Musings on Love and Human Nature
This is a continuation of the conversation that was begun on page 2 of Hopeless42's post in Wayward side, to avoid thread jacking.
DRSOOLERS,
I could spend all day disagreeing with the sentiment of your post, but not to thread-jack, it is fair to say that the argument that love can be separated into a "noun" and a "verb" may be a convenient philosophical exercise, but it collapses under the weight of real-world impact
On the contrary. The separation into the two parts (technically three) I described is based on my real-world experiences and observations.
To suggest that one can "love someone to death" while systematically betraying them is to strip the word love of its most essential component: integrity.
Betrayal is a complicated thing, especially when you know it is wrong and undeserved, and one is also betraying themselves in addition to their loved ones. If one holds integrity as a value, infidelity is a betrayal of that value, and a betrayal of the version of the self one holds in high esteem and wishes to actually embody. As I described in my previous post, humans often behave in ways that are unexpected and self-destructive. You would not expect people to betray their loved ones and themselves because of the horrible consequences and pain it causes... And yet they do.
Love is not merely a warm internal sentiment or a passive feeling of attachment; it is a sacred duty of protection
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We agree on this matter. This is why I described love as having two (technically three) parts: the feeling [noun] and actions [verb]. When you feel love for someone, you value them for their inherent traits, you love being in their presence and spending time with them, you appreciate what they do for you and the ways they express their love to you, their thoughts, feelings, goals, dreams, happiness and well-being are of utmost importance to you... When you love[verb] someone, you praise them, tell them how you feel about them, you spend quality time with them, you express gratitude for what they do for you and do things in return for them, you actively listen to them... and yes, it's your "sacred duty" to protect their happiness and well-being.
These lists are obviously not complete, but they are several examples of how many people experience love[noun] and behave when they love[verb] someone. Infidelity runs contrary to loving behavior, but it does not inherently mean an unfaithful person does not feel love[noun] for their partners in similar ways to what I have listed. Again, infidelity is not only a betrayal of a loved one, but it is a betrayal of oneself, and it is both destructive to that loved one and self-destructive. Why do waywards harm their loved ones and destroy their own relationships, families, lives...? There are many reasons, and the journey to recovery and becoming a whole and morally-behaving person after infidelity begins with discovering those reasons. Then we work on correcting them, so that we can love[verb] properly.
If you claim to value someone while actively making choices that you know will shatter their psychological safety and reality, you are not experiencing love.
That is the exact myth that I described in my previous post.
Two of my closest friends are social workers, and I often think of the countless times they’ve worked with abused women trying to help them separate from a partner. These women often feel their partner loves them, to which the common response is: they don't love you if they beat you, isolate you, pour boiling water over you, or degrade you.
Herein lies the third part: how we want to be loved, and what kind of love[verb] we expect-- and accept-- from a partner. We should set our standards high for such a thing. Certainly abuse should not fit into those standards, and thus should not be tolerated. Whether the abusive partner feels love[noun] for the abused partner is irrelevant in such situations. The fact of the matter is that the abused partner is not safe, and therefore should end or even escape the relationship, not accept the behaviors of the abuser... I also wrote about this in my last post.
Tangentially related: people define infidelity as abuse, with which I do not disagree. However, ending a relationship with someone you love[noun and verb] and may or may not have invested in and built your life with, is generally very painful. Since there is chance for reform for a truly remorseful WS, many BS choose to remain in the relationship with their WS, on the condition that the abuse/infidelity does not continue. In instances of successful recoveries and reconciliations, it is generally because a WS feels love[noun] for their BS that they are willing to face up to the horrible things they did and put in the work to become better, both as a person and as a partner. They become better at loving[verb] their BS.
If we were to talk to these abusers, they could use all the same arguments you made—that the "noun" was there even if the "verb" failed. Maybe you are right and it’s wrong for social workers to assume the feelings of these abusers, but I’d wager not. I believe there is a point where the behavior is so incongruent with the sentiment that the sentiment itself is invalidated.
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They could say that, and very often they do. Many abusers love[noun] their partners, and will experience immense shame for their actions and/or crushing grief if the relationship ends. But they did, in fact, fail to love[verb] their partners, failed to protect them and uphold their happiness and well-being, and therefore they are still not safe partners regardless of what they feel. Their internal feelings are still their internal feelings... Again we do not have to accept behavior that does not meet our standards for how we want to be loved. A social worker could more accurately say that the abuse is not loving behavior, and that their victims deserve better treatment.
I would like to pause here to remind you the circumstances under which I brought up this two (technically three) part distinction. I would assume Hopeless42 isn't abusing her BS in the ways you have mentioned, except for her prior unfaithful behavior. If we are here to try to support her while she works through her feelings, assuming or telling her what those feelings are-- that she supposedly doesn't love[noun] her BS if her behavior has not been loving[verb]-- is not helpful. Especially when she has had such an explosive reaction to potentially losing her husband, and may be navigating a great deal of shame and grief. Why would you grieve the loss of them if you didn't love[noun] your spouse? As I wrote in the other post, I recall believing that my marriage was fundamentally un-fixable and that my husband didn't actually love[noun] me anymore, and I grieved that so heavily that I contemplated suicide, even as I carried out my affair with someone else. That's the pain of loving someone when you've lost them, whether you actually have or not. This is why I say "You don't love your partner if you cheat on them" is a myth.
All of this is to say, while I accept your viewpoint, it is entirely valid for someone to feel it’s impossible to love someone and betray them at the same time. We will never have a universally accepted definition of love, and getting into arguments about definitions can be futile—but for many of us, love without the "verb" isn't love at all
This falls under the third part: how you define your standards of behavior for being loved[passive verb.] This is a separate thing from how other people feel internally about you or their partners, just as much as it is separate from another's behavior towards you or their partners... When you squash the three parts together, I think it forms a picture of a general "love" as a whole-- like the romance we see in movies, or what we mean when we say things like "Ah, young love..." or "Love is in the air!" So I think if you say, "Love[general] is not one person cheating on the other," that makes sense. Maybe that's closer to what you actually mean? Rather than literally, "you cannot feel love[noun] for a person if you are unfaithful to them."
7 comments posted: Wednesday, May 13th, 2026
I have not been a good partner lately
I was sitting here reading others’ posts, and wondering why my BH has reverted back to not sharing his feelings or talking about the infidelity, even when I sense he is thinking about it and… well, "pry" is the word that comes to mind, but idk if it’s the right one. I don’t think I have ever demonstrated any unwillingness to talk about it. But then it occurred to me: he has expressed to me certain behaviors of mine that trigger suspicion, as he ties them to my infidelity, logically or not, and I have fallen back into the habit of doing a lot of them. I’m sure that doesn’t suggest to him that I care about his feelings, and probably reinforces whatever infuriating little voice in his head that is telling him his feelings are unreasonable and repetitive and he should keep them to himself, as he has described it to me. I have been so stupid!!
I logically know that I’m stuck in a cycle of struggling with my own feelings and mental health, which leads me to turn to these behaviors as a coping mechanism. Those two things have some overlap with my behavior during the affair, so I can absolutely see why these things trigger him. I don’t mean to come off as dismissive at all here— like I totally get it and want to quit doing these things. I’m just struggling with it. And I think the more I engage in these behaviors, the more my BH distances himself emotionally, and the more unloved and alone I feel, and the more I turn to my coping mechanisms. I just need to break the cycle somewhere. I have IC in about an hour, and hopefully my therapist and I can figure out a solution then. And obviously an apology and some communication with my BH is in order until I can implement it.
Our relationship has been so rocky lately, and I won’t lie, divorce has crossed my mind several times in the last couple months after some really gnarly arguments. At the same time, I’m absolutely terrified of it. I have felt so out of control and confused and lost for such a long time. This could be a great opportunity to take accountability on my part, and in doing so, maybe regain some sense of control. Please, if any of you could be so kind to pray for me or send those kind of hopeful or encouraging vibes into the universe on my sorry behalf, I would appreciate it. I need all the help I can get.
3 comments posted: Thursday, May 7th, 2026
Response to hfssc
Why would you respond to me on cocoolus5nuts’ post if you want to respect her, and if I want to respect her by not replying to her posts further? Also bearing in mind that since I’m a new member with fewer than 50 posts or whatever the requirement is, that I cannot DM you? That strikes me as catty behavior. You get to address me, in front of someone who is triggered and wishing to distance herself from me, such that she’s likely to read it and I can’t respond there. I had to make this whole other thread, and now I predict it’s going to be blown out of proportion.
I have read so many times on here the words of BS counseling others that if you feel or express resistance to the advice given, one ought to explore what they’re saying. I think that’s what’s happening with Coco. I found it ironic that she was willing to take the advice from HikingOut, who has also cheated, but was dismissive towards me, when HO and I were saying much of the same things, and felt that I was "defending" her WH. I don’t care one bit about her WH. She said that she was struggling with her situation, and I felt that, and wanted to help her. I saw a solution to her problem which would bring about the outcome she is seeking, which is for her husband to be emotionally vulnerable with her, and I shared it, even with her resistance to it. To be told that my final elaboration before ducking out is "wayward thinking" by someone who continued to reply to me is also very ironic.
Anyway, enough said. I don’t have time to be wrapped up in this woman-on-woman drama today and I’m trying really hard not to let it make me internalize misogyny.
7 comments posted: Sunday, January 18th, 2026
Response to hfssc (moved to General)
This Topic has been moved to General
0 comment posted: Saturday, January 17th, 2026
Putting on a Happy Face
Depression is kicking my butt. I’m not keeping up with my responsibilities. I have no energy. My BH has noticed me moping around, and though I know I’m probably just experiencing an imbalance in neurochemistry, he’s taking it personally. He said to me that he thinks sharing his feelings with me is making me feel this way, and he wondered if he should stop. I begged him not to— said that it’s just generalized, clinical depression, that we’re both still healing, that his feelings are important to me and I want to hear them.
But I think he has stopped sharing them again anyway… I feel so far away from him. He has been working late most nights, and sometimes even after he gets home, he goes back into his home office to do more work. Then I have to put our daughter to bed by myself, and I drag my feet and it ends up being pretty late before I get into bed myself. I know that isn’t healthy for any of us, and our intimacy is suffering. My BH will be asleep and not responsive when I cuddle up to him, and we’re pretty much only having sex in the middle of the night if he can’t go back to sleep. He did it last night and neither of us even finished. This is causing me a lot of distress and anxiety today, making my mood even worse.
I keep thinking that if I can just get back into an exercise routine, eat well, drink plenty of water, take my meds consistently, and get enough sunlight and sleep, my mental health would improve. It just feels impossible to do all those things with depression and a distinct lack of focus. It’s a terrible cycle and I’m struggling to break it. I spoke to my IC about it, and she said I’m very insightful about myself, and she’s trying to come up with solutions to help, but coming up empty. I said "Me too."
But I have got to figure this out. I have to turn this around and put on a happy face for my BH, or else our relationship is heading down the toilet.
1 comment posted: Friday, January 16th, 2026
Urge to break NC
Been struggling with some really heavy emotions lately. Anxiety, depression, obsessions, passive suicidal ideation, the works. I haven’t been taking my medication consistently, so I’m sure that isn’t helping.
My BH suggested I attend a sex-positive, LGBTQ-centered open event in the city last weekend, which I thought was…interesting. I wasn’t sure if he was just trying to get me out of the house to cheer me up, or if it was a test of some sort. But honestly for much of it, I either wished he was there with me, or couldn’t wait to get home to go to bed with him.
However, on the return trip, a song came on that I listened to a lot during the A. I was hit with an overwhelming wave of those heavy emotions, and as I pulled into my driveway, I had the urge to call xAP for comfort, even though I haven’t spoken to him since DDay many months ago. My husband does his best to comfort me when I feel this way, and he’s an absolute angel when it comes to supporting me through depression periods. But I just feel like maybe xAP would get it more, being a person who struggles with much of the same things, and that I would feel less guilty for burdening him with my feelings. There is also a limited number of people I can talk to about my suicidal ideation without being involuntarily committed…I shut those thoughts down right away and did NOT break NC, thankfully. I feel disgust for that man and want nothing to do with him anymore, no matter how much of a safe space he could provide. But the sudden urge in a time of weakness was kind of scary, and I’m still pondering it.
Have any other WS experienced recurring urges like this? What did you do about them?
For those BS reading, would you want your WS to tell you if they were having these urges, or just keep that to themselves as long as they don’t act on them?
Thanks in advance.
29 comments posted: Sunday, January 11th, 2026
